tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post2932401816564342511..comments2024-03-26T00:37:34.943+01:00Comments on Venezuela News And Views: Why France lostDanielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12128609182544333477noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-18982857860471809462010-06-23T16:57:54.524+02:002010-06-23T16:57:54.524+02:00Vicente
I am having a hard time to detect what yo...Vicente<br /><br />I am having a hard time to detect what you are really aiming at, besides the obvious attempt at trashing me, which I can handle having had a long practice at such things. And yet I cannot fail to detect your inconsistencies, which brings me back to yet another reply.<br /><br />For example, now I am not a racist but my post is (?). Which you attribute to the shortness of my post, the reductive nature of my ideas and what not. Fine, whatever. However you also add that my post "does more to advance the problem (segregation) than to work comprehensively around immigration."<br /><br />It does not because it is not written in French, it is not even written for a French public and to boot I doubt that any one in the French team reads my blog or any blog about Venezuela for that matter.<br /><br />And yet I cannot fail to observe that the only one who has used the word "black" in this post and discussion is you. With the added demeaning "black kids" which is an odious extrapolation of my words. <br /><br />Anyway, it is time to stop. You made your point, let the readers decide on their own.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12128609182544333477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-54688535438969851242010-06-23T09:49:35.908+02:002010-06-23T09:49:35.908+02:00Daniel,
1) Immigration issues deserve a serious di...Daniel,<br />1) Immigration issues deserve a serious discussion. But reductionist tactics that argue World Cup results based on stereotypes in no way helps advance this issue. Your post does more to advance the problem (segregation) than to work comprehensively around immigration.<br />2) I didn't call you racist, I said your post was racist (nuance).<br />3) I fail to see how your "theory", which is nothing more than a badly-formulated hypothesis in the best case, is "proven" by the recent debacle. Actually, it's the contrary: The implosion of l'Équipe proves the issue is *way complicated* and cannot be reduced to simple explanations. If you followed football, you'd know the "Domenech problem" has been dragging for years as the autism and disconnection of the FFF with the public and players. Imposing coaches and not protecting the players (such as with Henry's qualifying hand) created this communication crisis, which has little to do with the amount of black kids on the team.<br />SalutVicentehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14010144635209936329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-39224291431733883632010-06-23T04:48:23.920+02:002010-06-23T04:48:23.920+02:00Vicente
Sorry, but that Le Pen uses these argumen...Vicente<br /><br />Sorry, but that Le Pen uses these arguments make them no less a sad fact of life of France today. Pretending to ignore them as you seem to do is akin to refuse to discuss allowing the veil in public schools, the burka, female incision and polygamy just because it is a "cultural". Different angles, same intransigence. <br /><br />That these kids are first generation born (most are anyway) that they feel second class citizens, that many come from unforgiving banlieus is not something we can chose to agree on, it is a mere fact of life with which the French society needs to deal with. That we agree or disagree on the way to approach these issues is irrelevant. That you accuse me of racism in spite of the long history of this blog (I do not remember any Vicente posting before) is simply silly.<br /><br />But I do not need to discuss with you further: the recent events of the French team, the debacle of the whole operation, the reactions in France, and more, unfortunately seem to confirm my theory, at least on the resentful spoiled brat part.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12128609182544333477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-89478981046420973782010-06-22T10:59:55.765+02:002010-06-22T10:59:55.765+02:00Daniel,
"Unforgiving Banlieues" and &quo...Daniel,<br />"Unforgiving Banlieues" and "failed integration efforts" are *exactly* Le Pen's arguments. Maybe you haven't heard him in a while. His racism is founded on the same critique your making.<br />Why do these kids feel "2nd class citizens"? It's simple, because even though they work hard, become professional athletes and represent *their* country, people like you keep on treating them as "first generation immigrants". That's where discrimination comes in and that's where your post is "unacceptable" as I wrote before.<br />Of course, you know you're just copying Alain Finkelkraut's same racist argument for l'équipe de France (http://bit.ly/9gkVA3), although your position is slightly less absurd (can't beat Finkel at that) since he pretends the problems between Gourcuff and Ribéry are due to "race" and "immigration" (FYI: They're both white).<br />Firepigette: I nominate you for the "grateful immigrant" Ministry. You'll be allowed to test immigrants on this issue and reject their greencards. Wait... That's already been proposed by the FN? What a curious connexion...Vicentehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14010144635209936329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-64998058585412377792010-06-22T05:50:24.704+02:002010-06-22T05:50:24.704+02:00Kepler,
Perhaps when you are older you will unde...Kepler,<br /><br />Perhaps when you are older you will understand the wisdom that comes with age- until then you probably won't.Your elders cannot teach you this, you have to learn it on your own in time.Age is not something to insult- it is something to be respected.<br /><br />The term 'force' implies someone has no choice.People usually have a choice.<br /><br />In the cases where people feel they might have to immigrate,they make a decision,and if these people come from difficult circumstances, on the contrary, gratitude should be the first response to the country that has taken them in, and given them asylum.<br /><br />Any attitude problem is not justified.firepigettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17348890269608169297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-38000391598713140082010-06-22T05:06:39.877+02:002010-06-22T05:06:39.877+02:00kepler
keep it simple
"Because France has a...kepler<br /><br />keep it simple<br /><br />"Because France has a team mostly of first generation Frenchmen."<br /><br />means in the US children of immigrants born in the new country. since this blog has a majority of US readers i tend to use these meanings for expressions.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12128609182544333477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-76998542021085485352010-06-21T23:00:04.490+02:002010-06-21T23:00:04.490+02:00Regarding what Daniel said:
I don't know. I a...Regarding what Daniel said:<br /><br />I don't know. I agree with Carlos.<br /><br /><br />Firepigette,<br /><br />"learned it's (sic) ways"<br /><br />As far as I know almost all but a couple of those guys playing for the French team are no immigrants. They were born in France. They are as much French as you are a US American.<br /><br />The older you get, the more reactionary you get.<br />http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89quipe_de_France_de_football<br /><br />People very often don't choose to migrate, they are forced to do it and then everything goes in a much more difficult way than it went for you or for me. You have no bloody idea what is going on in Africa.<br /><br />It is more complex than what you can grasp.<br />Your Gone-With-The-Wind upbringing does not allow you to understand it.<br /><br />The reasons you had to go to Venezuela were completely different than the reasons the parents of those players had and the education you got in your early years as well. You really deem yourself so superior. <br /><br />Perhaps we should stark breaking tabus and start talking about how people like you become so blind, don't you think?Keplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-88621540338561428652010-06-21T20:31:32.786+02:002010-06-21T20:31:32.786+02:00Daniel, guess it's semantics here, but I just ...Daniel, guess it's semantics here, but I just don't see National Pride as "essential" as you do. I do agree it is an important factor, but not as important as the other components of the equation that I mention. i.e. you can have all the National Pride, integrity, unselfishness and dedication, sacrifice for the team, with mediocre players: Zero Chance. Conversely, you can have teams with huge selfish Egos, independent motives, personality conflicts among players and coaches. With enough Talent, those problems take a back seat, in part because the "disturbed" team start winning. Winning, as they say, cures all ailments in Sports. <br /><br />One more thing, as you mention inferior teams beating superior teams with their passion or "Fire". Again, to me that's an essential ingredient for victory, but not the most important one, which is aggregated Talent. You can play with all the energy in the World (Ask any asian team) to no avail. You need Technique, polished Skills in the field. <br /><br />Finally, anything can happen in World Cup Soccer because Clearly Superior Teams like Spain, Brazil etc suffer from the "Dutch Curse" -- no Euro-cup team has won the World Cub since 1988 -- yet, more than a "voodoo" funny superstition, it's because of the Format in Soccer. You don't have a best-of-seven series like in other team sports, or a longer elimination process that rewards long-term achievement. Thus, to my dismay, The Best Team in the Planet, Spain of Course, may not win. They have the Talent, the Self-less play, the Nationalistic pride, the Technique, the "Fire", but it's the stupid Format that betrays us.. j/k. Enjoy the games.<br />Carlos I.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-39767852627076257462010-06-21T19:59:22.852+02:002010-06-21T19:59:22.852+02:00Carlos I.
I do not agree with you because the Wor...Carlos I.<br /><br />I do not agree with you because the World Cup is different from the Eurocup or any other regional contest where the quality of players and their team work is basically the only key. You will see much better soccer at the Eurocup than at the World one. In the World cup whether we like it, whether we care to admit it, we see a "nationalistic" content that also reaches the players. It might not be the decisive factor, but it is an essential component of the mood of the players: read the interviews they give and you will see that most express way more national feelings than what they will express in other type of supranational events. That is what makes World Cups interesting: the surprise element when some teams transcend their abilities.<br /><br />We saw it yesterday again when New Zealand held Italy at bay. Or have suddenly the New Zealand players reached knowledge? What is happening to Italy is also what is happening to France, tired teams, without any fire in them, everyone worrying about their career much more than their team. <br /><br />What I hope will come from the French debacle is that the new coaches will worry more about creating a real team than about including as many stars in it as possible.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12128609182544333477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-41861312496519577742010-06-21T19:37:58.741+02:002010-06-21T19:37:58.741+02:00"Of course, I do not mean to say that cheap p..."Of course, I do not mean to say that cheap patriotism or chauvinism as you may have it is the guarantee of success for a world cup, not at all. But it is an essential element"<br /><br />Interesting view-points here but I think it's a compbination of other more important factors, mainly overall Player Talent. And the lack of a few individual outstanding players. Nationalism, or pride for the Country, playing together and all does matter in World Cups. A team playing together. But in the end, what matters most is the accumulated QUALITY of your individual players, wherever they came from. More than the Flag or socio-economic circumstances.<br />Carlos I.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-74542428199446309372010-06-21T16:38:06.575+02:002010-06-21T16:38:06.575+02:00Vincent,
Calling any qualifying comment about p...Vincent,<br /><br />Calling any qualifying comment about people of color racist is a mentally reductive non- thought.It is just a parody of what phony political elites demand of us.<br /><br />I immigrated to Venezuela.As a responsible immigrant I adapted to Venezuela,learned it's ways and honored the anthem.The responsibly was mine not anyone else's.<br /><br />Those who do not do this should be ashamed to have immigrated, and they should hardly be allowed to represent the country they have immigrated to.We do NOT have to immigrate if do not wish to.No country demands us to join them.<br /><br />Making this kind of comment a TABU, is a tactic of the non thinking left.It obviates any possibility of really analyzing a situation.If you have Tabus that limit you to only commenting on one side of a problem then that problem is unlikely to resolve itself.<br /><br />How do you expect people to mature when their tactic is to blame others for their choices.firepigettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17348890269608169297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-12277014869065787962010-06-21T15:29:19.219+02:002010-06-21T15:29:19.219+02:00Vicente
1) right, it was the Stade de France and ...Vicente<br /><br />1) right, it was the Stade de France and not the Parc des Princes. Correction made.<br /><br />2) sorry you took it this post as a Le Pen pamphlet when it was instead a clear criticism of French society in its failed integration efforts for the first generation French from recent African immigration. Surely expressions like "unforgiving banlieues" and "justified feel of being second class citizen" do not appear in the Le Pen racist jargon.<br /><br />I suggest that you read it again and correct your self. Thank you.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12128609182544333477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-46351791777585466102010-06-21T12:09:26.002+02:002010-06-21T12:09:26.002+02:00Maybe there is another element to add. As De Gaull...Maybe there is another element to add. As De Gaulle is said to have quipped once, how do you get a country that has over 350 varieties of cheese to pull together.Charlynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-60633787499402397842010-06-21T09:17:49.779+02:002010-06-21T09:17:49.779+02:00This post is revolting and unacceptable. It parrot...This post is revolting and unacceptable. It parrots Le Pen's racist declaration: "there are too many blacks and arabs on the French Team".<br />The good thing is people will laugh it off as a bad joke, coming from someone who is so lost on this topic he thinks the final of 1998 was played at Parc de Princes.Vicentehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14010144635209936329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-53484714365001037762010-06-21T07:06:37.781+02:002010-06-21T07:06:37.781+02:00Daniel: it's the curse of the Leprechaun, isn&...Daniel: it's the curse of the Leprechaun, isn't it obvious? <br />That and no more ZidaneMartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07605250739418926462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4080946.post-63294607218583685202010-06-21T05:00:30.626+02:002010-06-21T05:00:30.626+02:00The soap opera of France is very ad to behold, but...The soap opera of France is very ad to behold, but this is the result of the the failure of the FFF by not firing Domenech after Euro 2008. <br /><br />I wonder how Ireland could have perform in the cup instead.geha714https://www.blogger.com/profile/12680077918707375990noreply@blogger.com