The type of terrorism which devastated Norway yesterday must be searched in Oklahoma almost two decades ago. The constant negative ranting of some media (Murdoch?) and some politicians (Chavez?) eventually give rise to crazies like those who did these attacks in the name of race or pseudo Christian principles or who knows what... Terrorism is terrorism and having as a first reflex to look for the Islamist connection is not the best move (Aznar?).
No country deserves a terrorist attack whatsoever. But when we look at what happened in Norway which is almost an ideal democratic working welfare society one has to pause and wonder.... From Baghdad to Oslo are we suffering from a mere statistical increase in terrorism or are we truly creating it?
My heart goes to Norway which for some reason is the country where one of the three top per capita readers come to this blog.
Norway is a true world leader in civil democratic society. This goes to show there are kooks in every society, no matter how stable and decent.
ReplyDeleteI am very shocked. I have a couple of Norwegian friends. I actually was in those islands off Oslo many years ago, in mid summer and they were really relaxing places, gorgeous nature. One thing that stroke me was how trustworthy people were.
ReplyDeleteI hope Norwegians can one day recover some of that trust, I wish them all the strength.
I would first like to express my profound sorrow at what has happened in Norway. That such an event can occur in one of the most peaceful and pacific of societies is unsettling, as it is a reminder that unstable and potentially dangerous individuals can come from anywhere and strike any place.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I would like to disagree with you (and apparently the entire world-wide media) in calling this "terrorism". "Terrorism" is a tool wielded by political groups or organization to achieve political goals. Even if this were a political act or statement (and we do not even know that yet) the perpetrator acted alone and not as part of a larger organization. All indications, so far, point to this being the act of a single deranged individual.
The term "terrorism" is poorly defined today and highly emotionally politically charged. Since the spectacular attacks on the World Trade Center, it has been used as the reason (not excuse, that would be more pejorative than I intend) for extreme security measures and encroachments on our privacy that, under other circumstances, would never have been tolerated. It has been used as the reason for initiating long and costly two wars. Those wars indeed might have been necessary for that and other reasons, but the threat of terrorism was used to sell the world on their necessity.
Regardless of the admittedly real threat, "terrorism" has been used to justify measures that have reduced the personal freedoms and privacy of the citizens of a large part of the world. For this reason, I object to what happened in Norway being labeled as terrorism. I do not want the threat of deadly rampages by lone maniacs (who have existed throughout human history) to be lumped in with "terrrorism" and thus provide governments with even more excuse (this time I use "excuse" instead of "reason" deliberately) to curtail our personal liberties.
Again, the people of Norway have my deepest sympathies.
This man was obviously not a Christian and there is nothing conservative about him.
ReplyDeleteThe Facebook Page I saw was a fake, the "Christian" and "Conservative" were added after the man was in custody and the name released.
Muslims come in all colors, by the way. 90+% of all bombings are Islam. Look at the wars raging around the world, the vast majority come from Islamic expansion.
Jumping to the Islam conclusion makes perfect sense in these times.
Norway has a lot of problems, unlimited immigration is going to break it like many other countries.
I agree with Roy, this is the act of a deranged man, terrorism is another thing. Nonetheless this is also a societal problem. Extremisms of any kind are filthy and very dangerous, whether they come from one person or organisations or - like real Al Qaeda - from fuzzy, disconnected movements.
ReplyDeleteUCC,
Don't come up with that crap. We can also say those Muslims who kill people are not Muslims. You will never learn...Geez. And if you come with "oh, no, because the Quran says" I will come up with ten similar examples from the Bible and a little bit of history.
You will apparently always act with double standards, one for you and specially for WASPS and one for Muslims and "such people".
And I do think the Muslim world is very backward, but I recognise also a little bit of perspective.
"90+% of all bombings are Islam."
Well, perhaps in Pakistan. For ever 11 Jews bombed in Israel, you have 1300 Arabs, most of which civilians, bombed in Gaza, same for the case of Lebanon etc.
The USA has a "wonderful" record on bombing civilians in Iraq and before that implementing useless embargos that have led to the death of hundreds of thousands of people...without getting rid of a horrible dictator the US supported and armed in the first place.
The amount of civilians killed by US bombings in Yemen is appaling and that was shown to US Americans finally with some Wikileaks (some of the few that were worth publishing), to the rest of the world for months before through countless reports.
Is that terrorism? Probably not. But was that justified? No way.
Oh, boy, you can use Google tools to get a rough translation of
ReplyDeletethis
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm grateful to see the Norwegian flag on your blog today. Norway has become home of hundreds of families from Venezuela the last few years and it really struck me that among my Facebook friends _they_ were the first to change their profile picture and stamp it with the Norwegian flag yesterday.
ReplyDeleteWhat strikes me when following the news here in Norway, reading the "manifest" of the bomber/killer, seeing his video etc., is that this is not a deranged, psychotic killer. What he wrote was not totally disconnected from reality, extremist, in fact you'll find most of his ideas everywhere where there's debate about immigration.
That's what's so scary about this... What created this monster, what triggered his extreme actions, how dit he get so determined? How could we have avoided it, if we could have...?
'this is not a deranged, psychotic killer.'StigH-I see your feelings- but, I see a "history"-training, preparing, urging others to extreme reactions-and a desperation to be famous-even to become a martyr.A "homegrown"terrorist-yes,
ReplyDeletea terrorist.
There are becoming fewer safe, peaceful, healthy places to live
on the Earth....
I commend you, UCC, for commenting without the filter of the damned political correctness.
ReplyDeleteI'd have a lot to comment, particularly debunking Kepler's crap, but I won't. Too much of a tragedy to get sidetracked with comments about US bombing, WASPs, Israel etc., that have NOTHING to do with this.
It's a time of mourning and reflection. Sad that he uses this tragedy to launch some cheap stabs.
My condolences to the families of the victims.
Mike
Fox news did not exist at the time of the Oklahoma city bombing.
ReplyDeleteIt would almost seem that your solution to terrorism is to curtail free speech, even from people who don't incite violence. It sounds like a solution that a certain Venezuelan dictator would mindlessly inact.
Norwegians will eventually come to terms with this outrage. It just takes a little time to get over the worst. Americans gave a good example in the way they recovered from the Oklahoma City bombing. The sooner people calm down and start to think rationally, the better.
ReplyDeleteThe last thing our Norwegian friends need is another 9/11 type reaction. Americans are still trying to recover from the twin towers bombing. The episode has been much too traumatic, and has led to many irrational decisions. I hope Norwegians will take the opportunity to lead by example.
Antonio
Well, Mike: it has a lot to do. The vocabulary of that murderer is very similar to a lot of the extreme right is using, obnoxious claims of conspiracies between groups that simply don't mix together (Islamo Marxism and the like) and the Muslims are not the only ones carrying out a lot of the bombing of innocent people.
ReplyDeleteI leave it at that but Nunne gave an interesting link.
Franky,
Fox News type of journalism has a long tradition, I would say from the Cold War on, specially in the English-speaking world, which has isolated itself a lot after WW2.
What I find amazing about this terrible event, is not the event itself, is not that there are extremely deranged fellow human beings capable of such things, is not even the cheap way in which most of the media and commentariat is jumping to conclusions on the political affinities of the killer.
ReplyDeleteRather it is the notion that because Norway is a stable democracy, with plenty of welfare, and so on, these things can not happen. It is the notion that because the attacker appears to be Scandinavian therefore it is inexplicable, for some, that he did what he did.
Mind you, the naivete, the sheer ignorance of human nature, is, to me at least, the most shocking aspect of the tragedy.
We live in a fucked up world, whose every society has deranged extremist aplenty. No country, or society, is free from that. None. That, it seems, is a bit of reality a lot of people need bombs and killing sprees to come to terms with.
Stig, you said:
ReplyDelete"What he wrote was not totally disconnected from reality, extremist, in fact you'll find most of his ideas everywhere where there's debate about immigration."
My internet investigations led me to ponder on this aspect as well.
Alek,
You were also a voice of reason on this thread when you said that there is no reason to believe that something like this cannot happen in Scandinavia, because of its stable democracy...etc.One thing doesn't necessarily have to do with the other.
One of the problems of the world today is the fact that "people" are politicizing all thoughts, making it difficult (due to political correctness nuts and its ilk) to talk about them- much less resolve issues.Because of this and other factors( more dangerous weapons, globalization,etc etc)we are seeing the era of the crazies crawling out of the wood works.They were always there, it is just that during some eras felt and were more unempowered.
I hope the beautiful and blessed country of Norway protects itself the best it can in the future( that is if they are not too fearful of the PC Zombies).
My sympathies.
Kepler,
ReplyDelete"Fox News type of journalism" is a bedazzling phrase empty of much meaning. I would invite you present evidence to back up your claims. I would also invite you to provide links to Fox News broadcasts that you find inciteful. Please walk us through your thesis.
Otherwise, if you're going to perform a smear job, you shouldn't rely on your readers to simply trust your assumptions unless you are certain each is a complete buffoon. I'm guessing that you hold your opinions of journalism because you in-turn simply trusted someone else's assumptions.
Awaiting evidence that you are capable of independently arriving at your own conclusions,
Franky
Kepler, I understand where you are coming from but you have to rephrase it. See above. Fox is a business and the most profitable. The murdochs do push the line.
ReplyDeletegweh
"The constant negative ranting of some media (Murdoch?) and some politicians (Chavez?) eventually give rise to crazies like those who did these attacks in the name of race or pseudo Christian principles or who knows what..."
ReplyDeleteSo, you and others wish to blame the satanic acts of one man on a media baron [Murdoch] hated by the left or blame the celebrated [Chavez]politician praised by the left and then imply that Christianity was also a factor whilst ignoring the celebration on Islamic Internet forums? With comments like yours it is no wonder so much of the world hears about Venezuela's descent toward a Marxist state, shrugs and plays another Winehouse CD.
Daniel, I the world is full of crazies. Nothing new here. Do yourself a favor:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
Crazies (lone wolf's) can be linked to anything they came in touch with. A bit superficial
Franky,
ReplyDeleteI did watch sometimes Fox News's reporting on Iraq, for instance. It is vey tiring to go over this, specially because you people have very little - and this will sound very arrogant- understanding of world news, of history, of ideologies. Most US journalists, not to mention the average population, are monolingual and even those who are not seem to get most of their news from basically English media.
It is so tiring.
WMD and all that crap about Iraq? Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda connections? (less than the US government, actually)
Fox News and Glenn (OK, now not more there) calling Obama a racist? Glenn considering every stupid thing "Marxist" without having any clue about what Marxism is, any idea about how the different forms of socialism developed, what social democracy is, what the differences between all those forms and actual state socialism or communism is?
Give me a break!
Use Youtube to look for Fox News 2003 Iraq, for instance. Or just watch the kind of interviews they have all the time with people advocating the assassination of people like Wikileaks's guy Assagen etc.
As for Fox News not considering themselves mainstream: what the hell is mainstream media if not them?
But then I actually don't see so much different between Fox News and CNN or NBC...and you know why? Because I can compare them with a much wider range of news sources.
The debate in the States, specially on TV is rather shallow. It may have to do with the fact you have to have ads every 15 minutes or so. I don't know, but in general the media there when it comes to politics is rather shallow, very shallow...and those wackos go unanswered and every group just listens to his preacher. Debate? Very little.
If you want me to look for Fox News and its reporting on "communism" in the States or Islam, just let me know. I hope you can use the search function in youtube.
And you? How many times have you watched German or Dutch or French news last year?
Kepler,
ReplyDeleteYou don't sound arrogant, you sound cornered, defeated, and embarrassed.
I simply do not share your high opinion of yourself. And you can't convince me otherwise.
I rather enjoyed how you watered down your argument by including America's other news outlets.
Please be aware that our internet is the same as your internet. We have access to the same information that you do and take full advantage of it. You are no better informed than anyone else. But what separates you from many others here is your self-important bluster.
You must find yourself fascinating.
I'll post again tonight when you're in bed. See ya later.
ReplyDeleteMy first post hypothesized that you would find censorship an acceptable means of dealing with an opponent.
ReplyDeleteAfter having my last 2 post removed, I see that my hypothesis was correct.
What exactly separates you from Chavez?
Terrible event to happen to any community. Those nice families of the victims affected in Norway must be feeling horrible.
ReplyDeleteHowever, why do we shudder and panic so much when some individual, crazed maniac goes nuts in any society, killing relatively few people in some 'civilized" place, every number of years? The media blows this kind of incidents way out of proportion.
Actually, with all of the modern technology, violent videos, internet communication, gun availability, population growth, economic hardships, drugs and other factors, it's a miracle we don't see many more lone-gun shooting like this tragedy in Norway, unabombers, anti-abortion psychos, religious extremists, etc.
Serial killers are a hot item. Lone shooters and high school massacres too. They bring top ratings, thus revenue. How about genocides in Bosnia or Congo, Sierra Leon, thousands wiped out in a few months, or the dozens killed every week in places like Caracas, Mexico City, or other more common and bloodier occurrences than what happened in Oslo?
I guess we get tired of the usual news, 70 dead after bomb in Afghanistan, or 3 African tribes fight, killing 550 men, women and children. Happens too often, far away from our comfortable lives. But when one insane psychopath goes wild in our of our "developed" nations, we freak out. Why? Probably because we feel out own children in the best schools of London, New York or Sweden might be vulnerable. Or just because we happen to have friends or family in Oklahoma, Oslo or wherever a sniper shoots. Would we even care, otherwise? This morning, thousands of people are getting violently killed, 3 dozen here, 200 hundred there. The media doesn't care, most of us don't even find out about most bigger massacres.
The fact remains that terrible, isolated incidents like this one in Oslo is an abnormality, which shouldn't concern us nearly as much as other crimes, far worse ones, occurring much more frequently everywhere in the world, as we speak.
Sledge, you answered your own question as to why-we in the"developed" world -freak out.Yes, it is because we accept gruesome deaths, cruel injustices in faraway, "undeveloped" places-(and yes- there is a growing amount of these activities -in our own backyard-or in other areas of our cities,sometimes spilling over into the elite neighborhoods).
ReplyDeleteYes, we have become desensitized and weapons, technology can be used for terror -lay all around us.
As Daniel mentioned -ranting -for example-Chavez- making everyone chant "Patria, Socialismo, or
Muerte"- c'mon people- do we really want to be chanting
"muerte" anything? I don't and I do not.Chavez wants chavistas to be martyrs? I think so, but, that is wrong to advocate that, agreed.
Finally, I did not hear any comments from Chavez and/or the Venezuelan government condemning the bombings in Mumbai recently or this homegrown terrorist shooting and bombing in Norway?
Think of it like an airplane crash. Now, we all know that per passenger-kilometer, flying is far safer than driving. Yet air disasters garner a huge amount of press because we are morbidly fascinated at a the shear capriciousness and magnitude of such an event.
ReplyDeleteWell, far more people are killed by ordinary criminal violence then by these senseless asocial anomalies. But, as with the airplane crash, we cannot seem to help trying to glean some higher meaning meaning from it.
Well, the main reasons behind most tragic acts of violence are usually the same, century after century.. A/ Religious radicalism and intolerance, number 1 cause of bloodshed since humans started praising whatever Gods they chose or invented. B/ Greed for money, material cravings and power. Historically allied to the deadly religious stuff, in most cases. C/ Crimes of passion, emotional quarrels, sex stuff, also often money related. D/ Mental insanity, chemical imbalances in the brain, also often related to twisted religious beliefs, greed, and/or relationship issues or isolation.
ReplyDeleteSo it's usually a combination thereof, several of these factors at play, which can drive individuals or large groups to commit crimes and even kill others. Common denominators? Ignorance, of course, sometimes lack of education, or poverty, which leads to twisted ideological beliefs, absurd religious intolerance, greed, aggression and ultimately murder. Sometimes it comes from a few isolated crazy people with some of those symptoms, sometimes it's a whole nation or tribe against another. The media likes some of these tragic stories better than others. As prehistoric humans.. we are still violent, aggressive and ignorant predators, still animals inside in many ways. A few of these sick psychos just can't control their primitive urges.
Sledge,yes-we haven't changed much from the "prehistoric human"-esp. when a modern human is raised in a barbaric,backward society. Yet-this Norwegian -was raised in a well-to-do,well-fed, comfortable environement,and received a more than adequate level of education.
ReplyDeleteThere is no mention of personal suffering or struggle for him-so this was a totally willful- PREMEDITATED-events he deliberately proceeded with. Not just an animal reacting to a threat or killing to eat...I agree with much of what you say but I do not call this "a primitive urge"
I do not understand and believe that this fellow is trapped in his own confusing,conflicting as you say Idealogical beliefs-but, this case is very unclear as to what this fellow really was trying to communicate- and really I don't care in a way-because there is absolutely no justification for any sort of things he has done to these people.
Terrorists everyhwhere and terrorist wannabee, copycats should take note- the message ultimately is no message justifies this behavior.
Sledge, Your knowledge is weak, inaccurate and wrong. If your reference to "religious radicalism and intolerance" was changed to say 'lack of religious freedom" I might say you were getting closer to the truth. Instead, your opinion typifies the lazy educated lacking knowledge and wisdom. All of the major terrorist acts in the world committed by Islamic 'followers' have been committed by the highly educated and moderately rich. Your opinion is more left wing prattle that say much ado about nothing. Perhaps you might wish to read the Norway killer's manifesto and try to get learn his thinking. Blaming religion is not going to help. Mr Norway may have fired the first of many future blasts against the seemingly never-ending forces of evil. You know - original sin and all that?
ReplyDeletefranki
ReplyDelete1) no post has been erased, they just ended in the spam folder. your choice of words made it go there straight.
2) apparently you have not understood my post. that you disagree with it is one thing, but that does not allow you to misunderstand it.
I assume you have the power then to restore my posts.
ReplyDeleteIf not, please let me know what wording your spam filters find offensive and I will make the appropriate changes.
ReplyDeleteI let one in, the other was a repeat. You decide how blogger spam works, I am not interested in the details. However I would not throw such accusations just because your post does not appear on the spot.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Please accept my apologies and thank you.
ReplyDeleteHere's a copy of some of "Whiskey's
ReplyDeletepost on PJM-so far-I believe this is the most accurate=
What he is another Beta Male Rampage. Like Cho, Sodini, Loughner, those Chinese guys killing Kindergartners in China. His target — women and kids, as usual in these cases. He’s nuts, and frustrated. He’s not even Travis Bickle, who at least in the movie provided a useful social service.
You can’t make sense of insanity. The guy was another Rogue Male on a killing rampage. No women in his life, none. Probably had a helper like John Mohammed had Lee Boyd Malvo. Or McVeigh had Fortier and Nichols. These semi-random killings by guys going berserk have no real reason to them other than frustration and insanity.
The real “reasons” for the killings is he never had any women in his life and was profoundly mentally ill. That’s it. Any rambling political views were window dressing on the real “reason” if you can call it that."
Thank you DD, for letting Franky's post in, because I have exactly the same opinion about Kepler.
ReplyDeleteMike
It is funny how Mike said that about "how I dare" bring those topics in this hour, when his pal Franky was the one talking about Muslims being the great evildoers in the first place when Daniel discussed the Norwegian tragedy.
ReplyDeleteFranky,
"We have access to the same information that you do and take full advantage of it. You are no better informed than anyone else. "
Can you elaborate? Perhaps you "read them all" like Palin? What is it? What do you usually read from other sources? Neuer Zürcher Zeitung? You regularly read Le Monde? El País? What is it? Or perhaps Volkskrant? And what channels? Al Jazeera perhaps? Or is it either of the main German public stations? What do you think of what very conservative Scholl-Latour, specialist in the Middle East, has said?
Because it doesn't show.
My mentioning CNN et alia was not "watering down", but you don't get it as you consider those outlets really "from the other side" practically, so you thought I was balancing things out.
I found fascinating a discussion between a Fox News guy and Jon Steward where both were discussing about "Liberal agendas" and "right winged agendas" and all that.
To me, other than some differences between whom to invade when and some differences on positions on abortion and the like, they are not that different, after all.
Even "highly-commended" NYT and Washington Post seem in the last decades more like White House publications, with "White House spokesman X" as probably the most frequent quote.
When I see CNN reporting on Iraq or Afghanistan, I see by far most of the time they interview the US soldiers, some US officials and then, to do "an inside story", their own English speaking interpreter and perhaps some students of English in Kabul. What a joke!
So: no, I am not watering it down. I am saying it is worse, just that what you consider leftist is just a mild version of yourself.
To some extent, the US media is just a little bit more varied than Russia's. What the masses consume, both the Fox News and the NBC viewers, is not more varied than what people in Russia have with Izvestia on one side and Novaja Gazeta on the other. Yeah, you do have the fringe radios and fringe newspapers of all kind, but a real debate on very conflicting ideas in the main media outlets do not take place (no, the Jon Stewart-versus Fox interviews don't count).
There is also an eternal fear of being portrayed as "anti-American", "un-American" and the like if you touch in a serious ways some topics.
Kepler:Lol
ReplyDeleteyou said:
"here is also an eternal fear of being portrayed as "anti-American", "un-American" and the like if you touch in a serious ways some topics."
Kepler, please everyone knows that people are more afraid of looking pro American rather than anti American, precisely because of people like you.
Believe me it is better to stop.You do not want to get into a debate with me:)You have the US all wrong, and Europe wrong as well, but I don't think an ugly USELESS debate will do anybody any good, nor will it change people's opinions.It doesn't seem to do much good in Europe either, in my opinion.You have to realize that ALL news sources have bias.
If you debate me you will lose.I am not a person to win by calling other bigots, racist or stupid.It is that simple.
My husband speaks 7 languages( including your beloved French, German, and Dutch).We have broad band internet, and access to all sorts of info, he is a history buff, reading between 7 to 8 history books a week, has a masters degree from an ivy league University in International Relations,has lived in Holland and Paris as well as the US, and while he does not agree ( half the time) with FOX news, he finds it better than most European news sources.The fact that we are more conservative than Europeans does not make us stupid Kepler.People have a right to be on the left, and people have a right to be on the right.But when people are called stupid, ignorant, racist,or bigot for not having leftist( or European) ideas,for agreeing with Fox news, for being American,etc., then it eliminates all debate.
So before you criticize Americans for not debating perhaps you should see the sty in your own eye.
Kepler,
ReplyDeleteHere's a small sampling of the international sites I visit daily:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.welt.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwelt.de%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D
http://worldmeets.us/index.shtml#axzz1T7HyjyQM
http://english.aljazeera.net/
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/default.aspx
We ALL visit international sites. It's the only way to break out of the Democrat vs. Republican bubble of U.S. news reporting. However, international sites exist within thier own bubbles too. Only a fool would fail to recognize that fact.
You really must get a load of yourself.
Firepigette,
ReplyDeleteDon't come over with "we all visit" because that's not true. Otherwise you wouldn't see US American tourists here time after time asking us for something in English without even bothering to ask if we speak English. And your husband may speak all 6000 thousand languages on Earth. We know what the average is for a citizen in the States. It is rather similar to that of Russia or Italy and we know how good the Russian or Italian media are. That wouldn't be such a problem if they were not the ones still sending their marines everywhere.
Franky,
Every source has its own bias and I have stated that repeatedly.
Fact is when Daniel call attention here to a concrete crime from a right-winged man several US American conservatives here went on with the usual anti-Islamic blabla. They could have at least waited for the Islamist attack to do so, not?
I see you need to get to the Spiegel subsection that is translated plus the occassional machine translation from Die Welt.
That's something. I also see you do visit Al Jazeera. That is probably a zillion times more than what UCC and millions of othes do in the States, and apparently more than what a lot of journalists do.
And as I said: sources are biased, but things get particularly biased when the
"anchors" and other prime journalists in one country are mostly monolingual guys who don't even know the most basic differences between communism, social democracy, socialism and who spend 98% of the Iraq-Afghanistan reporting interviewing their own people.
Firepigette & Franky,
ReplyDeleteNo need to give him more rope, if you know what I mean.
Mike
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI know.I have nothing more to say on this subject.There is no debate to be had here.
No greater climb down have I ever seen.
ReplyDelete