Tuesday, August 06, 2013

Why it is impossible to discuss with a chavista

And more so with a PSF, those foreigners that think they know it all about Venezuela and Chavez.

No further comment needed. And why there is a moderation policy in this blog. Though admittedly PSF are now a rare occurrence.....


  1. Island Canuck9:40 AM

    Excellent Daniel.

    Unfortunately not one Chavista would be able to argue anything using these parameters.

  2. The problem I see with these blogs on Venezuela( and maybe other blogs as well I don't know) is a tendency to fall into straw-man arguments, slander, name calling,labeling,and or irony.This is true with many Chavistas, but also with many in the opposition as well.Unfortunately I also see this among political pundits in the US and Europe, which makes me think that the nature of politics lends itself to this kind of discourse, making understanding or respect between those of differing labels next to impossible.Once a person has a label( psf, opposition, Republican, Democrat, Social Democrat, Communist,Hippie, Geek etc etc) , folks just respond to them with a predictable set of prejudiced ideas.The herd instinct plays a big part as well.

    For this reason, dialogue is next to impossible and I prefer to see what others think without too much interaction because often true interaction is not even possible.Most unfortunately we ALL have much more to evolve before we are able to go beyond politics and into real reason and mutual understanding.firepigette

  3. Unfortunately for some, humanity means diversity -- a diversity of already entrenched beliefs; a diversity in education; a diversity of right-brain vs. left-brain thinking; a diversity of insecurities with some needing to fantasize and exaggerate to maintain those entrenched beliefs; a diversity in the use, or not, of backed-up credible statements; and finally, a diversity of morals, where for some, the end justifies the means, say any ole thing, whether true or not.

    Part of the diversity paradigm is that it lends itself to dynamic exchanges. But ultimately, those exchanges cannot move the discussion forward, leading to two solitudes.

  4. Lemmy Caution4:31 PM

    Last time I went to a chavista presentation and "discussion" event (Dario Azzelini) in Berlin, I've learned:
    - back in the dark ages (before Chávez) Venezuela made 4% profit out of their oil production. Now its 80%.
    - bip quadrupled since 2002.
    - all venezuelan oil exported to the US is refined by CITGO
    - inflation for this year will be higher than expected. Between 21 and 25%. (ME: I know its verboten to ask questions during the presentation, but Mr. Azzelini what inflation rate for the first 6 month of 2013 was published by the Venezuelan Central Bank? Azzelini: I don't know and you better shut up.
    - problems of oil refineries, etc. is in part due to lack of maintenance, but also because sabotage acts by groups under the command of the US. There are many causes for the ills and the opposition/international media allways mentions part of the truth.
    - Government complied with *all* recount requests by the opposition and the victory of the glorious Maduristas was allways proven.
    - they seriously discussed this fighter jets at the Colombian border thing.
    - corruption is a problem, but the phenomenon kind of democratized during the current Government. Now also humbler parts of the population have access to corruption. Its a problem, but a logical outcome after 500 years of living under the thumb of the US and Spanish Colonial Rule.
    - opposition wants to restore colonial rule of the US.

    I mostly mentioned stuff, which could be refuted easily, if he were interested in a debate. There was more. They only draw small audiences. About 40 people in Berlin. Many old GDR people, who will keep their faith in the ideals of their youth until dead. Active people for their age. No me caen mal. Some politicized girls and boys in their early 20ties. Venezuelans with government jobs in Germany and one venezuelan woman with academic job in german uni, who was kind of more open, but I hadn't the nerve to talk to her afterwards. She spoke german during the event. Any other venezuelan chavista I have seen during such events need a traductor, even if they live in Germany for 8 years.

    Dario Azzelini is asistant profesor in sociology of Kepler University in Linz.

    They have no success in bringing the german masses behind the bolivarian flag ;-) , but I suspect that for 5 people in this remote country Chavismo was used as kind of a "career" option. Nothing big. I see no other explanation. Why else would middle aged people with uni degree defend such rubbish? One guy in his middle 20ties with a romance like ow from oilwars fame.
    Its to bizarre to be taken serious. They have earned retoric skills, but the substance of their discourse is pitiful.

    Only problem: Venezuela is a real country.

  5. hello, i would like to create a blog that would be co-authored by individuals with a range of perspectives across the political divide, who would be willing and able to engage others, in 'good faith', and in a spirit of 'reconciliation' rather than polarization, and according to the criteria outlined in the flowchart above, in discussing current, and often controversial, issues in Venezuelan politics. if anyone here would like to get involved in this project, or at least to be notified when it is launched, please send an email to vzlapolitics [at] gmail [dot] com.


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